Selbstzweck, Nein Danke – the recipe for human-centric technology

Technology must be human-centric, says MEP Sabine Verheyen in this exclusive Netopia video spotlight. Technology should not be “Selbstzweck” – only serve itself. This principle can guide both research and legislation, according to the EPP deputée.

In this interview, madam Verheyen elaborates on how offline regulation can be brought online, the limitations of the policy-makers’ reach and accountability in AI – what if the AI makes a new Rembrandt?

Episode 1 featured MEP  Alex Agius Saliba, this is the second interview in our Netopia video spotlight-series. Enjoy

 

Netopia Spotlight interview with MEP Sabine Verheyen

You’re a member of European Parliament. You’re with the European People’s Party group and you’re also the chair of the culture committee, so, thank you so much for coming to Netopia.

MEP Sabine Verheyen
Thank you for inviting me.

Per Strömbäck
It’s a pleasure. Now, my first question is: What is it that brings you to the digital policy topics? What is your political drive in this aspect?

MEP Sabine Verheyen
When I entered the Parliament nearly 12 years ago, I was foreseen to deal with media questions, as the media landscape is turning more and more digital.

The way people consume and use new technologies, the devices, the way of distribution of content has changed and switched in a very tremendous way because there are new ways of distribution and also new ways of how to create content.

So, it was natural that I have to deal with the digital questions when you want to deal with media, with creativity, with new ideas, with Innovation. And that was the reason why I had to start to work with this. When I studied architecture, I was just skipping the digital era. I was working with my hands. I made all my plans for this and all these new systems came up for the CAD systems after I finished. So, I’m not a digital native, but I have to have to deal with all these things. And I think so, it is for everyone in our society who is older than forty or fifty years of age. We’re not growing up with these huge number of digital possibilities, and so we have to learn. Perhaps that is also why I have understanding for for both sides.

My children grew up with digital tools but there’s also a generation that has to adapt to this and we have to have both in mind and we have to see which chances but also what challenges are in the digital side. But we also have to face the problems and challenges that are coming up with the digitised world.

Per Strömbäck
What are some of those challenges?

MEP Sabine Verheyen
We normally think that the digitisation of the internet brings more diversity to people, but in the end if you really take a look, it’s not always that diverse.

We normally think that the digitisation of the internet brings more diversity to people, but in the end if you really take a look, it’s not always that diverse.

We are meanwhile caught in bubbles, due to the algorithms via the content that already interested us before and the wide range of varieties.

The wide range of diversity is not always presented if you don’t search actively for that.

And that is also something we have to deal with when it comes to Digital Services Act, Digital Market Act. But also to other regulatory tools that we keep the digital landscape, open, and broad, and that we keep the diversity we want to have especially when it comes media policy elementary for media freedom and diversity and also crucial for functioning democracies.

Per Strömbäck

So, what learnings can you bring then from traditional media policy to this digital media landscape? Is there something useful that can be replicated or is it completely different?

MEP Sabine Verheyen

We were dealing with the Audio Visual Media Services Directive in the past, the last legislative period together with Petra Kammerevert, from S&D, I was rapporteur for this and we had a co-rapporteurship on the AVMS and we had already included some parts.

When it comes to these grey zones of what’s legal, what’s illegal and you have some zones in between, you have content that is formally legal, but is harmful…… harmful for democracies like fake news or foreign interference information and propaganda and also other things and there

When it comes, to audio-visual services online to balance out, a level playing field between classical media and digital media, especially when it comes to transparency, in advertisements to have a clear separation between the advertisement and the content, they already had the classical media.

And the question is always how to transpose that to the digital worlds into digital platforms and tools. So that people really can distinguish between different characters of content.

We also have a question and that is something we had media literacy tools. also, in the past, to deal with information, how to detect sources, that was something that was easier in the past because you did not have to wide range of sources and we can also think about what work well in the past, but can be transposed to the new digital times, but also to think about what has to be done differently.
What has to be done in another way then we know it on the classical and media regulation what can be transposed. How can we use best practice?

The best practice, For example, the work of the media authorities, the regulatory authority and the ERGA. That’s the European Regulators Group for Audiovisual Media Services.

I think we can learn from their experience from what they did also in the past especially when it comes to these grey zones of what’s legal, what’s illegal and you have some zones in between, you have content that is formally legal, but is harmful…… harmful for democracies like fake news or foreign interference information and propaganda and also other things and there, I think we can also learn from the experience we made with other media players, classical media players that cannot be adopted one-to-one, but perhaps the fundamental ideas that are behind can be transposed? That’s already very interesting.

Per Strömbäck
Now you talk mainly about the audience and how media policy can help the audience, what about the other end, what about the creators and their business partners?

MEP Sabine Verheyen
That is why the Digital Markets Act is set out to get a better level playing field between platforms that are controlling the market.

To fight for your own, right as a creator, as a publisher, as a distributor of content, is quite difficult sometimes because of the market power, puts you in a less good position when it comes to negotiations and conditions.

The market power of the big platforms, like, Google or Facebook and others is quite high.

And so, as to fight for your own, right as a creator, as a publisher, as a distributor of content, is quite difficult sometimes because of the market power, puts you in a less good position when it comes to negotiations and conditions.

That was the reason why I thought it was very important that we made the Copyright Directive, which included a responsibility for platforms, so that they should not control the content but they have to to take responsibility when know about infringements, for example, copyright infringements.

The second step that comes now is the Digital Services Act that also plays a very important role in the distribution and in the relation between content provider, service providers online, and the platforms and still have the right level of responsibility for the big tech players.

Per Strömbäck
I understand the ambition but sometimes we hear that there is a limit to the reach of the European policymakers.
Do you think these policies can achieve all the things that you hope they will? What’s the reach of the European policy in digital?

MEP Sabine Verheyen

You see it already just in the draft, just proclaiming legislation. Just the draft led to a change in the way how platforms worked, because they see that they cannot go without responsibility in the future.

For example, when you take a look at what’s going on in Australia, Facebook and Google were forced to share the advertising revenue that was generated by publishers in connection, with the presentation of journalistic content.

That is on the basis of what we did also on the European level. So European policies has an impact on this because all the other regions [are acting]. A short while ago I had a chat with a politician from the Canadian Parliament.

She was very interested in what we did in the AVMS with the platforms with the video sharing platforms but also with video-on-demand. That was something we’d previously regulated, but especially the video-sharing, she was interested looking how it works, what we did.

I think we can make a change when it comes to responsibility and also to secure democratic structures, also on the platforms. I think the internet is not a law-free environment, it should be carried and driven by our democratic understandings and by our societal agreements we have, by the values we have, that this is on the one hand Freedom of Expression on the other hand but also that our Freedom of Expression is limited when it becomes harmful for others.

And I think to level this out in the right way, can have an impact on how the platforms are working and how they take their responsibilities, also in the future.

Per Strömbäck
Speaking of the DSM, Digital Single Market Directive, it’s been many years now in the making and there is a Trilogue, but there seems to be a delay in the implementation of that in the Member States. And now the Commission says it will issue guidelines. What do you think of the Commission issuing guidelines after the Trilogue? Is that a way for the Commission to change the outcome of the Trilogue?

MEP Sabine Verheyen
Normally not.
These guidelines should reflect what was discussed during the Trilogues, it’s clear like we also did in the AVMS, but also for the Copyright Directive.

We could not finalize every detail in the legislation It would be better if you want to have a minimum level of harmonisation on the European level, because you cannot touch on digital issues just at national level, because digital services are very often cross-border offers. So it is good not to have a split, diverse structure for digital players in the market but to have a common minimum of level of regulation and that’s what we wanted to do with the Copyright Directive and AVMS Directive to give direction for how we should work. But there are still differences in the Member States, but the general line should be similar or in co.

Per Strömbäck
What do you see as the role of the policy maker in Artificial Intelligence, and in particular for the culture and creative sector?

MEP Sabine Verheyen
First what is important is that Artificial Intelligence technologies are human centric, the technologies should not replace human beings entirely

The last decisions must normally be taken by human beings that also in the creator-sector where I think it is important that the guidance for the framework on how artificial intelligence tools are working should be set by human beings, by the programmers, by those who are using and make applications it should be should be the human beings.

I see in artificial intelligence,  good chances for creation to make things easier or very complicated things that need huge data to work with these things and the creative process as well as the database and what’s behind the picture, and questions have to be answered, for example when I make a new picture in a Rembrandt style? Is it Rembrandt in the end who gave the basis for all with all his pictures with all his work? You’ve done for the new painting because without this data of the Rembrandt paintings the new Rembrandt never would exist not in that way so the question is who is the Rights owner, who is the developer of this? Is it the one with the idea to make a new Rembrandt? Is not important because he has been dead for longer than 70 years, but if you have contemporary artists, it becomes a question that has to be cleared up.

There are legal questions that have to be discussed, but also ethical questions, for example when it comes to implement it in education or for vulnerable people.

What can you do with the data because artificial intelligence always based on mass data and that is the reason why we have to be careful and balance out to promote the chances that are coming up with these new technologies, but on the other hand also see the risks. Or also when it comes to the distribution of cultural and content of works. When it is targeted micro-targeted to a special group, can I guarantee access? What other criterions are in the algorithms? Whether artificial intelligence tools are working with. What is going on also in other areas of the creative sector, like in the gaming sector?

Technology is a tool. Technology is not a value per se and have to set a frame for the development into the right direction.
We don’t want to limit creativity and limits also innovation.

It’s quite interesting to see how software can and artificial intelligence tools can interact. You can have a computer or robots that are working with artificial intelligence. There are so many opportunities, also for art and the creative sector. But that is what we always have to see where are the risks and can we keep the human being in the centre of the work, in the centre of creativity so that we are not overruled by machines one day?

Yes, I think that has been a fear since the days of Frankenstein already been going back to the Gollam and we always fear that man’s creation will bring us down at some point, but that’s already very interesting and we will get the chance to talk more about artificial intelligence.

It strikes me that… when we talk about digital development, digital technology including artificial intelligence, often the point is made that the development is fast, so can the policy maker keep up or is it always one step ahead?

That is the point we are always discussing. Are we fast enough with our legislation processes with political discussions are always jumping behind or are we in the forefront?

We sometimes see that developments go faster can react and that’s the reason why you have to think different. We should not react but we should set the guidelines where to go to.

Technology is a tool. Technology is not a value per se and have to set a frame for the development into the right direction.

We don’t want to limit creativity and limits also innovation.

But we have to set fundamental rules that are technologically neutral and that is something we are trying to implement in the legislation. In the last year’s that we get more towards not targeted legislation to just one single technology but become technological neutral in the principles that we put into legislation or into a Regulation or a Directive.

Per Strömbäck
We’re almost out of time, but I cannot resist asking your question on this topic of the policy maker keeping up with technology, but isn’t it also the case that public funding for a lot of the research that goes into a new technology? For example, the big European research programs. Do you see a connection there, because that part of policy should be ahead of the technology, or?

MEP Sabine Verheyen
That is what we discuss: politics cannot decide what’s good and what’s not good beforedand before we know where we are going or we want is to to enable new developments and the research towards new technologies, new ideas, but we also have to keep up with the development when it comes to fundamental structures and values. Also research is not out of a value framework.

You cannot do everything that theoretically possible just because it’s possible, because that is what I mean with it must be human-centric.
We want technology to be developed to serve human beings, to serve our nature, to serve our environment.

Not just to serve yourself. For me technology has to serve the future development of human beings and our our planet and I think that is if you keep that in mind you can support new developments, also fundamental research on principles. That’s important to lay a basis for technological innovation and new possibilities and sometimes you have to to let it develop and then take a look and see is it a good development or not?

We want technology to be developed to serve human beings, to serve our nature, to serve our environment.

But you need also the power to say when it’s something is going into the wrong direction. Like we see now with some platforms as spreaders of information that has a negative impact on democratic structures.

Then we have to set guidelines. We have to set guidelines then where it where it’s not acceptable for us as a society, because society if a loses its orientation and loses its fundamental and basic values it becomes difficult just because it’s technologically possible, and I think that is always the balance.

We have also to find out balance out in politics between that what is in the interest of technological development innovation of what is technological possible, to support new developments but on the other hand also give guidance which will be how technology will play in our society.

Per Strömbäck
Thank you very much for coming on to Netopia Spotlight and we wish you the best of luck with this to work.

MEP Sabine Verheyen
Thank you.